After the recent shooting at an Elementary school in Newtown, CT, I posted this question on Facebook:
This eventually resulted in an extended Facebook dialog between me and Boyd Hawkins (which I am posting in its entirety here). Just as an introduction, Boyd and I serve on the Board of the Coppell Republican Club. However, we have radically different backgrounds. Boyd is white, Christian, gun owner who has been around guns since he was a kid and an ardent defender of the 2nd amendment and gun owner’s rights. I am brown, Hindu, never handled a real gun in my life and a pragmatist (that is, a problem solver not bothered too much about any ideology).
Hope you find this dialog illuminating – and worth commenting about – your views (especially controversial ones) are welcome!
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This coincidentally happened also last Friday but in China – same scenario – evil, crazy nut attacks children in school – except nobody appears to have died because the weapon of choice was not an assault rifle. There are and always will be some crazy, lunatics in all countries and cultures – challenge is for the “sane” majority to finds ways to minimize the damage that the loons could potentially do.http://www.cnn.com/2012/12/14/world/asia/china-knife-attack/index.html
Knife attack at Chinese school wounds 22 childrenwww.cnn.com
Twenty-two primary school children were wounded in a knife attack Friday in central China, authorities said.
Hi Venky
Constitution of a country is the fundamental philosophy of determining the life the citizens country and the society they live in.
With passage of time Amendment to constitution is a necessary function keeping in mind the circumstances that changes the way of life of its people.
Bearing Arms by a citizen a constitutional right was relevant at the time around when the constitution was created.
There was no public security for the citizens and people had to guard themselves. To hold an arm was considered a right then.
But having lived through 200 years , with America leading the world as leader of invention/technology/science /education has failed to read its own constitutional weakness due to political/Vested interests /Narrow minded political idiots.
With hundreds of people dying in the USA each year due to GUNS, is it not expected of a modern civlisation and its so called civilized society to amend the constitution.
Unfortunatley after the New town shooting the gun sales have increased???
Is it not incredible??
Have Americans lost their minds and out of their brains
To top it all I was watching the Pierce Morgan interview with President of GUN traders association.
I was astounded and felt ashamed to be an American citizen on hearing the comments that henceforth all school teachers to bear GUNS to protect the children.
Is it not shameful ??? What a society we are living in ??
Ram
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I too saw the Piers Morgan program and following was my comment on Boyd’s FB page regarding the concerned individual ” In our dialog, I think you articulated the gun owners’ position way better than some of the bozos on TV representing Gun Owners of America, etc.”
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Dad, good article. It is very sad that all those children died because of one stupid guy. I am still really confused on the issue, however. What would posses him to do that to a bunch of little KIDS? I hate that guy so much!!!!! I know this is kinda mean but I wish he had not killed himself so he could be slowly tortured to death.
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Venky, Ram’s comments and opinions above are held by many, but they have inherent to them several assumptions that I believe (and the American founders believed) to be faulty and hazardous if they are held as foundational when shaping a society. I mentioned or alluded to them in the dialogue above:
1 – Everything is in a state of progress; there are no eternal truths / principles; all things are in a eternal state of improvement.
2 – Governments (and Man) are inherently good and will always act in the best interests of its citizens.
3 – Human Nature can be shaped by Man.
The Constitution does provide a legal framework in which to shape and write laws, but it is worldview that shapes the culture of a nation (and in turn Constitutions). The assumptions noted above are Materialistic / Humanistic in nature. A Biblical worldview is what founded and formed this nation and it’s assumptions are opposite to ones stated above.
There were / are many secondary reasons for the 2nd Amendment that include: personal protection, hunting, sporting activities, etc. However, its primary purpose was as a deterrent and defense against hostile nations / governments (including potentially our own). It includes language about maintaining militias which are but citizen armies within states. Consider the spirit of these quotes:
“Suppose that we let a regular army, fully equal to the resources of the country, be formed; and let it be entirely at the devotion of the federal: still it would not be going to far to say that the State governments with the people at their side would be able to repel the danger…half a million citizens with arms in their hands” — James Madison
“If the representatives of the people betray their constituents, there is no recourse left but in the exertion of that original right of self-defense which is paramount to all positive forms of government.” – Alexander Hamilton
“…It is always dangerous to the liberties of the people to have an army stationed among them, over which they have no control…The Militia is composed of free Citizens. There is therefore no danger of their making use of their power to the destruction of their own Rights, or suffering others to invade them.” – Samuel Adams
“When governments fear the people, there is liberty. When the people fear the government, there is tyranny. The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government.” – Thomas Jefferson
Of course today militias have been turned into State Guards, so the perception of citizen involvement is diminished, which compliments and encourages the belief that regular citizens do not need guns (we will count on others to protect us … this also assumes goodness in government). Is this attitude / perception wise considering the spirit of above quotes? … I recognize that government tyranny in this country is far from likely, but I suggest that our 2nd Amendment is the reason we have that confidence … it is still relevant and necessary.
Given the 20th Century and the numerous tyrannical dictators making news today, I do not understand how it can be that so many attribute unquestioning goodness to government. Can one not see the venom and hatred within the dialogue of our own national discussion? I suggest that violence is being restrained by the presence of gun ownership even now.
A topic we did not even discuss is corrupt / misguided governments. Read what Alexander Hamilton had to say in Federalist 6 about the misguided paths human nature can take a man.
Ram also mentioned that hundreds of people were dieing each year “due to GUNS”. There are ~32,000+ people killed each year in car accidents (10,000+ of which involved intoxicated drivers) … how many of them were blamed on the car? … the phone on which the text was being sent? … the can of beer? Is the scalpel blamed for the 3000+ abortions that are performed each and every day in this country? Guns do not act by themselves, there is always a human behind the trigger … this is who is to blame. We need to restore a correct view of Man and Human Nature.
“Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties either — but right through every human heart — and through all human hearts. This line shifts. Inside us, it oscillates with the years. And even within hearts overwhelmed by evil, one small bridgehead of good is retained. And even in the best of all hearts, there remains … an unuprooted small corner of evil.” ― Aleksandr I. Solzhenitsyn,
Given this understanding of human nature, the increase in gun sales after the shooting is not a surprise…it is expected.
Ram was embarrassed by the guest of Piers Morgan recommending that teachers / administrators bear arms … since that was my prescription as well, I suppose he would be ashamed of me. However, as I said in the original post, it would be a voluntary thing (the individual must be comfortable and willing) and would require training like what David Dewhurst just offered.
Those who share this position on gun ownership are not a bunch of wild-eyed, gun toting lunatics … we are civilized freedom loving responsible citizens. I tried to reflect this in our original discussion.
Thanks for considering another opinion.
Boyd
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Very articulate and informative, Boyd! I read it twice!! You should be the one on TV making the argument for gun ownership rather than some of the half-wits whose antics make all responsible gun owners (like yourself) seem like crazed lunatics.
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